Any stored/leased 737s that could substitute for grounded MAXs? Announcing the arrival of...

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Any stored/leased 737s that could substitute for grounded MAXs?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Could you help me identify a sound that began before pushback?Why aren't 737s or A320s commonly used for transatlantic flights?












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$begingroup$


The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?










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Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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    1












    $begingroup$


    The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?










    share|improve this question







    New contributor




    Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.







    $endgroup$















      1












      1








      1





      $begingroup$


      The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?










      share|improve this question







      New contributor




      Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.







      $endgroup$




      The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?







      boeing-737 fleet






      share|improve this question







      New contributor




      Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question







      New contributor




      Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question






      New contributor




      Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      asked 5 hours ago









      Phil MillerPhil Miller

      1086




      1086




      New contributor




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      New contributor





      Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          6












          $begingroup$

          It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).



          Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            2












            $begingroup$

            The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.



            Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).



            While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
              $endgroup$
              – Phil Miller
              1 hour ago












            • $begingroup$
              @PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
              $endgroup$
              – Ron Beyer
              1 hour ago












            Your Answer








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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            6












            $begingroup$

            It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).



            Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$


















              6












              $begingroup$

              It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).



              Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$
















                6












                6








                6





                $begingroup$

                It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).



                Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).



                Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 3 hours ago









                Ron BeyerRon Beyer

                22.7k282103




                22.7k282103























                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.



                    Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).



                    While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Phil Miller
                      1 hour ago












                    • $begingroup$
                      @PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ron Beyer
                      1 hour ago
















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.



                    Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).



                    While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Phil Miller
                      1 hour ago












                    • $begingroup$
                      @PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ron Beyer
                      1 hour ago














                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.



                    Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).



                    While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.



                    Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).



                    While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 2 hours ago

























                    answered 2 hours ago









                    user71659user71659

                    3,8851026




                    3,8851026












                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Phil Miller
                      1 hour ago












                    • $begingroup$
                      @PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ron Beyer
                      1 hour ago


















                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Phil Miller
                      1 hour ago












                    • $begingroup$
                      @PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Ron Beyer
                      1 hour ago
















                    $begingroup$
                    Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Phil Miller
                    1 hour ago






                    $begingroup$
                    Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Phil Miller
                    1 hour ago














                    $begingroup$
                    @PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Ron Beyer
                    1 hour ago




                    $begingroup$
                    @PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Ron Beyer
                    1 hour ago










                    Phil Miller is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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